Why Mental Health Is the Biggest Hidden Cost in Healthcare | Nawal Roy

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Healthy Team, Healthy Business podcast. Uh. We took a little break, but we're excited to be back here in springtime in Virginia and ready to rock and roll and share some more great information with our listeners.Um, today we're joined by Novel Roy [...0.4s] who, um, well, I was connected with through a third party and he's got a very interesting [...0.6s] business that he is built in building, um, in the mental health space, which is something that [...0.5s] David and I both have [...0.4s] been very interested in and have had quite a few guests about.And it seems like no matter what we talk about, no matter what the topic, no matter the expert, [...0.4s] mental health, stress management, [...0.7s] those kind of things come into the picture somewhere. So [...0.4s] this is a real issue with, uh, with our country [...0.4s] and with healthcare system.It's probably a huge cost. And we wanna make sure that we recognize innovators in that space that are out there, you know, doing the real work to make a difference. So, uh, we joined out one of them today. And so now we'll thank you for being here, uh, greatly appreciate it.And you just said you joined us from New York. So [...0.6s] if you wouldn't mind for our listing audience, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about, um, about yourself [...0.4s] and, um, in the beginnings of your company and then we'll kind of get into some questions from there, if that's all right. Absolutely.Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me, [...0.7s] um, Noah Roy, founder and CEO of Holly Musk. I started Holly Musk in 2015 [...0.7s] and my whole idea around [...0.7s] coming to solve mental health was it is one of the largest and most complex problem in healthcare.And to solve this, I thought the best way I can really solve it is bringing data into the picture. Because everyone has different opinion about it. We discuss it thousand different ways.There are multiple problems surrounded from Astigma to access to everything else. But the idea was [...0.6s] how do we really, [...0.7s] uh, bring data into the picture so that the decisions can be made on the basis of the data. So measuring it, managing it and solving the science problem [...1.0s] was my key goal.That's what we have been doing for last 11 years. Okay? And yeah, that's interesting because if you think about something like, [...0.5s] you know a broken leg or a busted appendix, you can you can kind of see it, you know you know it's there, you can look at whether it's an X ray or scan or some kind. Um, there are clear things, but mental health is one of those things.It's kind of objective. I mean it's, um, or subject, I guess. It's like, [...0.6s] how sick is somebody and can they really function in society? Or, yeah, um what are the things that are causing them issues? And there's so many buckets that you need to look out for.So [...0.4s] how did how did you begin [...0.7s] to start sort of coming up with your framework for the analysis and the data collection and [...0.4s] organizing all that?So, so we essentially, I came across chair of secretary of Duke University and he had been building an electronic health record system for 20 years. He had data for, you know half a million patients.And my whole idea was that, okay, just sitting somewhere in your it system archive [...0.9s] of half a million people over the clinical [...0.7s] students of my whole [...1.0s] intent was to narrow it down at a clinical level.But the reality is it gets manifested into thousand different ways, social ways and everything else, but the foundational component of all it all around clinical.So clinical data of a person who is suffering from mental health is what or the Maya starting point. And that Kinkle data is guest captured by a specialist THR.So this company was called mindlink. It was built by the Sheriff Security of Duke University. And my idea was that how do I organize this data so there is not sitting in the archives somewhere? And the curating the data is where the hard work of [...0.7s] science and technology comes in. So I acquired that company and I started curating it.And my goal post was that if we can manage to have a database of six to 8 million patients, that's large enough for anyone to really have a good sample size to do whatever is needed.Because a typical doctor doesn't see more than 50,000 patients in the lifetime. Okay, 68 million people would be large enough to start up the database by which [...0.4s] you can truly understand what has happened to different kind of patients. Uh.And so my starting point was from Duke University, the NWS that was for the Duke University, half a million. Uh, curation is extremely expensive, [...0.4s] uh, business to build, [...0.4s] you know, and that is what we have done.The science is very hard [...0.6s] and we straight to the course and spent almost$70 million plus to build this, you know, massive, massive data asset. And now we have you to surprise, we have approximately around 41 million patients set up. So literally anything to do with mental health, any kind of patients.This is really the first time in history of medicine where you see a database of this nature which is fully a specialized to only for mental health, only for neuroschiatrial, only for behavioral, what about the term that you want to use, [...0.5s] but it is the largest database that has been put together for the clinical nature of understanding of a patient.That's amazing. And so I guess one, the one thing about mental health is also maybe unfortunate is that you're only talking about data from people that have, I guess been been evaluated [...0.6s] by a professional who, [...0.6s] who are in the database.I mean, unfortunately, there's so much of that that probably is somewhat clinically not diagnosed. I would say [...0.7s] if you [...1.8s] so [...0.6s] and you have touched a very strong point, the idea is [...0.6s] these are the patients who all of them have been identified as a primary or secondary education of mental health.Okay? This is around 41 million patients if I really have to stretch it further and include [...0.6s] people who are still not captured by our data but exists in the society.So out of 300 million people, [...0.5s] and if you include even the people who are suffering from earliest phases of stress and anxiety which is not reflected clinically, okay, but still have the earliest phases of it, [...0.5s] and if you include even the patients which are coming from the other areas but have component of impact on this functionality, that number will potentially run somewhere in the range of hundred fifty,$270 million, under [...0.4s] 170 million [...0.4s] people there, [...0.5s] it will go up to 50 to 60%.So the sad reality of all healthcare is, [...0.5s] um, mental health is one of the largest primary or secondary indication of [...0.5s] healthcare that we sit in, [...1.0s] okay? And it's [...0.5s] much, much larger than we are ready to.And it's a, it's a sad component that, you know, it is still not something that, you know the science has gone of policy has gone to a level where it deserves the respect similar to physical health, [...0.7s] agreed.And [...0.6s] the other thing is the mental health issues end up manifesting in physical health problems. It does, I mean, again, I mentioned in the beginning the intro about stress, that's one [...0.6s] thing.What I mean, [...0.8s] if someone is distressed in some way, I mean the way that thing permeates throughout the other systems of the body, yes, is very real and shows up in, in ways that can be super impactful for to someone's otherwise, [...0.6s] uh, seemingly normal health picture.Yes. Uh, you know, take, uh, [...0.6s] you know, simplified even as simple as take a patient with, you know, [...0.4s] diabetes or obesity, [...0.5s] okay?Millions of people on GLP right now. Okay, pretty much. I can easily tell you 50% of that population has stress and have anxiety, have bipolar, some kind of mental health challenge or neuropsychiatric challenge.Um, yes, he's or her weight will be controlled, but the idea is if he or he or she doesn't cater to this, this will manifest in different ways. And does your, [...0.6s] does your data take into account those kind of downstream issues that come from mental health problems like, like we use describe?You can kind of, you can start drawing those lines and connecting the Nazi to all the time that mental health is one of the largest complexify, complexifies the care. It complexifies the cost, complexifies life and everything else.Okay, [...0.4s] so [...0.4s] what is the golden with your, with your system that you built? Is it to be able to go back to the clinical [...0.4s] environment and be able to use that data to them? Yes, micro [...0.6s] I guess. I mean really, can I get surgical with treatment systems or absolutely?So my goal post was to be, uh, the best utility or data which there are everyone in the stakeholder, every stakeholder in the healthcare can trust that data so that they can build the solutions that they want to build.So my intent was to build that platform, you know, a Lord bedding platform on which you can build, [...0.6s] uh, what does it mean that learn from each patient to make the next patient better? That's the ground rule number one.Number two, [...0.8s] reduce trial and error. [...1.2s] No. 3, measure [...0.4s] and follow evidence. See what has worked. Okay, if you combine these three and hydrate [...1.1s] very fast between research, [...0.6s] clinical community and the scientific committee, I create and learn from each other. That is how the progress in healthcare has happened.Whether it is cancer, whether it is diabetes, whether it is cardio, [...0.4s] there's a lot to learn from those, you know, um, therapeutic areas. And the sad point is mental health has not gone there, but this is where it needs to go. Okay?This is where my intent was to build that [...0.8s] extremely large scale scientific database so that all of these works can be done so [...1.0s] doctors can learn how to make the inner individual patient better, or doctors can learn how to treat a hospital system can learn how to treat a cohortal patient who are my highest patient. How do I take care of that? Insurance company can figure out how to make the payment on the back of it.Okay, [...0.6s] government can plan, okay, that for the population that is suffering from this, you know, what should be the part of the medical coverage, [...0.5s] you know, [...0.6s] all of that can be done [...0.4s] on the back of [...0.7s] truly understanding the state of complexity [...0.4s] that lies in the healthcare system because of mental health.Okay. And so how is it working in the day to day? Does a [...0.7s] clinician, are they able to log into that database, somehow access information? Do you provide regular reports?Yeah, how does that work? Any hospital system who is interested, they can partner with us, [...0.7s] use this platform, leverage it into the decision making that they want to do.And the decision making can be at individual patient level or it can be at a court level. Um. The, the, the key goal is we have the deepest phenotyping understanding of a patient.Okay. So the [...0.4s] deep digital finger typing of a patient [...0.4s] is the core goal. Um, and we work with every estate order in the marketplace, whether it is hospital system, whether it is, you know, [...0.4s] um, R&D companies, former company, academic institutions, all of them. [...1.1s] Okay.And when the, when the, um, hospital system or whoever might um, sign up for your database is there, [...0.5s] is there training involved? I mean, of course somebody can get access information, but they might not know what the heck to do with it.So that you, and then you got to put it in practice with people who maybe have been doing this for 15, 20, 30 years.Yeah. So they work quite all of that, you know, it's okay, quite all of it. Okay, I also have gone ahead and [...0.6s] created a sample case of how even the students, younger students and the undergraduate students can learn how to train their morals or build their morals because this is a extremely large problem in the university setting. Uh.My intent is how do I create the future generation of data scientists who is solving a problem of mental health, you know, and this database becomes a source for knowledge and a source for trial and error for them.Okay. So then [...0.4s] they have, they have a way to report back outcomes to you obviously if they want to do whatever, but yeah, if they want to, they don't have to die. Great. That, okay, they can love. This is, [...0.8s] um, what they do with it and what they built is their responsibility and there.But if they want to publish, we are more than happy to work with them to publish because publication is where we certainly see both whether it is that [...0.5s] academic sponsored, scientific sponsored, or, you know, [...0.6s] institutional sponsored, we would be very, very keen to advance the field of the [...0.5s] field of the science behind.Okay, yes I was thinking if you had that was kind of cool as a loop, if [...0.6s] you got feedback that [...0.4s] this data that I had and this is the practice that we implemented and then this was the outcome that we had, it seems like that would really tell a great story [...0.5s] actually.So, [...0.4s] you know, um, in NHS in UK, we work with hospital systems and we help them identify extremely high risk, you know, uh, cohort of patients that, who are my highest patients.All of those are relevant. Anyways, unfortunately at a provider level, sad to say it, [...0.5s] but because of a female model that doesn't [...1.0s] have parity with physical health, [...1.4s] uh, there is no incentive for clinicians and ha ha care system to improve the care.Yeah, okay, so all of them are focused on engagement and in also that you, you will see thousands of networks for which they will say that, okay, we have the best coverage.But the reality is the, [...0.5s] that [...0.9s] behavioral health is not at parity with physical health in the US right now. So the payment model doesn't exist, and hence there is not a single condition in this country which incentivise to improve your mental health.Yeah, it is tough. I mean, [...0.4s] you know, I've done, you know, engaged therapist over the year for different things and [...0.6s] you always have to, you have the cash pay and then you have to file [...0.7s] for yourself.And not that it doesn't work, but it's a hassle and it would discourage a lot of people might not have the upfront resources to pay that [...0.5s] hourly fee for the first couple of visits and then they're just not going to get care, which is terrible.Yeah. And we need to, [...0.6s] we need to, that is what my intent is to bring it out to the attention that, you know, the science need to be solved.We need to become very outcome based focused on this one [...0.5s] and we have to start defining the outcome. And those things can't be done unless you put together a database of this nature. And how are you finding the, um, the uptake amongst the hospital groups?And once they, [...0.4s] once they get it, are they, [...0.4s] are they glad you find resistance anywhere, especially in the aid, maybe the educational institutions.I'm just curious if they're open minded enough to, [...0.4s] to access the database and [...0.4s] listen from when it comes to science and knowledge point of view, all of them love it.Okay, comes to paying for it, that's where most things break down. Do they want to be in a sustainable, and do they have the incentive, and do they have the revenue?And so everyone is, [...0.6s] you know, how to make the decision on the basis of, does it meet the business, business sense around. Okay, and that is where a lot of things break down.And, and hence, [...0.4s] you know, like, do they feel the economic incentive to change and if they don't see the incentive to change, then very high likelihood they are not going to pursue. Yeah, [...0.6s] and I was wondering too, um, are you able to then, um, [...1.3s] can they measure their own [...0.8s] outcomes?In other words, I guess that's the part I'm still struggling with mental health, cause [...0.9s] how do you get better? Yeah, I mean, what do you define as healed? I guess you know, like I said earlier, broken leg, you know when you start playing basketball again, my leg probably healed.But with mental health, it's like, [...0.7s] I'm here. Maybe I'm not having some symptoms that I was having, or I'm able to function again in society. But [...0.5s] in my real life, I'm just curious. Yeah, I'm symmetric that [...1.1s] most people in the earliest days of any other disease, [...0.6s] um, is [...0.7s] not [...0.4s] as problematic because they are able to carry on with their life where it.Because problematic is once it is acute, okay, [...0.4s] and the cuteness at that particular time will be the help of her professional helps, okay, a well stylist psychiatrist or well stylist doctor who has knowledge of this, you know, can take care of it.The key indicator is always can you function, function as a person, function as a, you know, as a society. So can you hold a relationship, can you hold your job?Can you? And I'll go through your [...0.6s] day to real life, or is the pathology has come to a level [...0.4s] where you are just not functioning, just not productive.Okay. And those are the barriers in which it needs to be changed. And the reality is it can change partly with therapy, partly with medication, and partly with overall and other factors that goes into improving.Okay, [...0.5s] and I was gonna ask again with the, um, the data you have, yeah, when it comes to integrating that also not just with the, [...0.5s] I guess, with the clinicians but with pharmacological you know, treatments as well. Um, are you able to track that alongside of that and then also those outcomes?Absolutely. So, uh, we have a huge amount. So that's what I'm saying. Okay? I think the data is where, you know, the, the, the medicines that the person have taken, you know, the medications that has been there or the different things that this person has gone through, or the different side effects that this person is seeing, or the different trial and error that it is going into. All of that is the key component of the clinical care.Okay. And then what about other, I mean, I guess I don't wanna call them alternative or more holistic treatments, but, [...0.5s] um, you know, you can read something about ssris versus like ice baths or something like that.You know, so I'm just curious if any of that makes its way into your data analysis or how can you account for some of that kind of stuff?It does, but [...0.6s] all of those things always play a minor role and it comes to real impacting it. Okay, [...0.7s] so for [...0.4s] a person who is suffering for extreme depression, you know, that person requires completely different layer of care and different layer of medication rather than anything of the small nature.Okay, so the people who have extreme PTSD or extreme schizophrenia or any, I know.So the [...0.7s] mild to medium [...0.6s] is one thing, but medium to acuity is where it becomes extremely powerful that, that person has gone through like any other therapeutic area, you know, a serious level of help that is needed okay. And how about the other things that, um, [...0.5s] people may have to go?Some right now, I might have to go overseas for like I hear about like ibogaine or something like that.Um, [...0.7s] I'm just curious about here about those things. But [...0.8s] do those are those factors in the air and into the people that are pushing [...0.4s] for some of that stuff to get maybe more, [...0.4s] um, accessible in the states? Do they contact you and [...0.4s] try to get hold of your data or no?I mean, yeah, so I mean anyone who is interested I'm is there any pharmaceutical company that have a drug in the pipeline?If they want to understand as to what is the [...0.5s] relevance of their drug, you know, all the symptoms that they have or what subset of the population that will be relevant. Okay, um, for them, our database is as best as it can get.Okay, so because those questions can't be answered unless you have a full phenotyping of the different kind of database.So what has happened to the good patient who have this kind of treatment is where my whole goal was to, okay, [...0.6s] how do I build the biggest database so that you can have the biggest and the deepest phenotyping occupation, because that is how the science has really improved in other therapeutic area and that we certainly work with [...0.4s] pretty much every pharmacist company that have a drug in the pipeline in this area.So yes, okay. And then do they also, um, work with you when they're in the development stages of a drug?Okay, [...1.0s] okay, so that the moment they come into phase 3 [...0.9s] clinical trial level, we become extremely [...0.7s] relevant partner to work with them. Okay, [...0.8s] yeah, in what is the, what's the pipeline? How does data get to you? How do you collect that? Yeah. So we partner with, [...0.7s] uh, multiple healthcare systems.So, uh, you know, so we go and, uh, partner with say listen to you and say tomorrow Mayo Clinic. You know, Mayo Clinic has around 2 million patients okay. Um I would say 10% of that patient will have some kind of mental health challenges.So we will partner with the clinic [...0.7s] and show them because [...0.6s] they might have two million patients, but the curating the data is expensive and especially comes to mental health, no one has done the curation. So it took me almost seven years and$70 million to build that curation engine.Okay, [...0.6s] if, even if mayor wants to do, it will cost them five to ten million dollars to do it. Right? Yeah, these hospital systems don't want to put that kind of resources on something of this nature. So they always want to, you know, sort of [...0.6s] earth [...0.7s] solve it for the purposes of [...0.5s] what they're doing.And so we show them that every weekend we can give it the data for you and give it the data back to you so that you can use it for, on your clinical purposes. And so we have gone after health system by health system, one at a time.Okay, like, yeah is this can be done even at a, [...1.0s] you know we can partner with EHR system, we can partner with you know, say [...0.8s] large institutions like VA, military CMS.You know, it can be done at multiple level. My [...0.5s] whole purpose behind doing this that even if I can do it with a single health system and show them [...0.9s] the power of that data so that I can close the feedback loop, you know, because right now the patient goes, doctor catches the data search the archive and search the archive.Okay, my idea was how do I extract from the archive curated, [...0.9s] give a feedback loop so that clinician can use it.Okay, [...0.4s] and in the process that it is that you have created that has multiple other use cases to use case for varsular company, it has use case for policymakers, it has use case for, [...0.4s] you know, researchers, it has use case for scientists and all of that.Okay, [...0.6s] so that was the goal post on the business market for us. Okay, [...0.4s] and I should have asked this in the beginning, but, [...0.5s] um, what was your background before this?I mean, that's, that's incredible what you've done. So it sounds like your ability to analyze data was maybe already there. I'm just curious what you're, what you're into before you started doing this. But adventure no sir for me, I'm, I'm not from healthcare.I'm, you know, I'm trained as an economist. Uh, no, and I worked in the area of finance for 18 years, but my, you take away from those two training laws as an economist, you are used to thinking in complex system, you know, any economy is a super large complex system.And if healthcare is a small system, you find that five or seven different disease area influence 70% of the cost in all the clinical need for the market, okay, of the system.And within that, [...0.8s] the moment you double click, you find that mental health is the biggest, most common area [...0.5s] that has been completely untouched so far. So aha, that's where the Ha moment comes out and say, okay, if I create something in this area all of a sudden you can have a big impact. So that was coming from the economist training point of view.In the world of finance, if there is single thing that have changed in the last 40 years was, say, finance in 1980 versus finance today, which everything is data. [...1.3s]All the decisions are made on the back of the data. Your opinion and my opinion don't count if you're not able to really influence it or assure it by the data.Healthcare is nowhere close to it in terms of adoption. And mental health is even much further in the background. So if I were to really, really simplify my whole goal was [...0.4s] how do I bring [...0.6s] the step best of the art of data science to the field of healthcare and within that, to the field of neuroscience to make it extremely data driven approach to looking at it.Okay, [...0.7s] how about the, um, insurance industry? Is [...0.5s] that they're going to be the biggest, yeah, they are going to be the biggest factor in this whole game.Okay? In terms of, uh, influencing and in terms of, uh, if there is a, [...0.5s] if I had a magic wand and a simple thing that I would love to change in the sector is, [...0.7s] uh, how to pay for it. [...1.0s] The payment model is completely broken. And the payment model is broken because the parity is not there.So you can go into the vicious circle why it is not there right now. But [...0.6s] a single influencing factor [...0.4s] for any garment will be how to pay for it both in the private on the public sect, [...0.5s] public sect.Yeah, I would think they'd be incentivized [...0.6s] to find a way to make sure that's affordable to everyone. So I'm thinking about how does this affect the masses? That's what, you know, what David and I when we do these shows, we always try to think, okay, how does this help our employees?How's this all people on our healthcare plan? How do, how do they get access to better care through innovators like you and then, you know, find, find a way to get, you know, get well so the simple answer is this. Think of a new person which [...0.4s] insurance company don't exist and healthcare is not paid.Okay, [...0.8s] that inverse is worse than a society in which in insurance is colored right [...1.1s] now. Take the version of the world, the version of the world that we live in is we only cater to metabolic risk. We don't care for the mental health. [...1.3s]The reality is mental health is the biggest complex fire, the cost factor on, you know, healthcare currently is [...0.7s] like they are simple analysis. A typical person with just diabetes versus diabetes plus depression, the delta is 2 x to 7 x.The cost, [...0.8s] okay, and the care [...1.2s] that can be reduced even if you reduce it by 50%, you are better off [...0.9s] taking care of this than not taking care of it. We live in a world in which we [...0.6s] reinforce metabolic risk but don't reinforce metrollot. We really don't treat this as a healthcare problem.If in a simple sentence, if I could say that mental health is a healthcare problem and it's a complexifying healthcare problem both on the care site as well as on the cost site.Go and talk to any insurance company right now, all of them will say [...0.7s] a very small percentage of my network, five percent of my network cost me 20%. [...1.3s] Analyze that, and you'll find the single biggest problem is on catered behavioral health and catered mental health. [...1.1s]Okay, [...1.4s] that's so impactful, it's not surprising, sadly. Um, but when you, when you [...0.5s] put it into real numbers like that, it's just, it just really hits hard.So, but what is our model of operation? Exclusion not covering [...0.5s] is the way we are. It's like thinking that this problem doesn't exist, [...0.6s] is the way we are dealing with it.Extrusion is not the solution. Yeah, [...0.7s] we have been doing it rain for the last 30 years, and I've, it has only become worse. And if there's anything, Covid has only made it much real, you know, close to home.Okay, yeah, so I'm hoping that we are on the verge of that ticking change that needs to happen today. [...1.5s] Yeah, that's what I guess. That's the still the scary part when, cause what you just said about somebody with [...1.4s] the way the system works. We've talked to this.We've talked about the same concept with, like, physical therapists [...0.6s] that are frustrated with the system. Because they say, well, somebody comes in, and they say my, my back hurts. But, and so you get the insurance approves you to treat them for back treatments.But it could be that they have a tight calf, or it could be that their hip flexor is messed up, or could be that their neck is messed up. But [...0.6s] that's not what the code says you're supposed to get reimbursed for.So you don't treat them for stuff, and then when you said, when you said somebody has, um, you might have diabetes and obesity and then, um, now they've got, they always said mental health on top of it.Yeah but if they go to the doctor because they're, you know, short of breath or low energy, you can't sleep right there gonna say, well, you're a beast. So we're gonna treat that.This other stuff doesn't even get touched, doesn't even get talked about, even though it might be very obvious and very real.It's not, [...0.4s] it's not on the chart. You don't get to check it, and you don't get reimbursed for it. So the doctors don't. [...1.6s] And the reality is that, yes, [...1.2s] you know, you don't get that back pain with every kind.Whereas take the top major chronic disease, whether it is diabetes, whether it is obesity, whether it is cancer, whether it is inflammation, whether it is rare disease, in all of this bucket, [...0.6s] mental health is the second largest comorbity.Okay, if not the primary indication, second reindication, okay, [...0.5s] and, and hence [...0.6s] it is nowhere, the competition is nowhere with the physical pain, like, you know, the back pain and what have you comorbid is extremely large, and hence the important need to be that, yeah, [...0.5s] agreed. Um, what about not talked about today that you were helping me to get into?I just, um, I'm so fascinated about everything you said. I just don't wanna leave anything out, but also wanna respect your time. So just curious if there's anything else that you would like our audience to know [...0.7s] about, about your system, about your program, about what's coming.Um, for me, the, the name of the game is, uh, you know, what we have truly done is bring the attention of the focus to mental health or neuroschitial sectors or neurosciences extremely, you know, just taking care of the body is not enough. Mind and the brain is important.That's number one.Number two is, it is one of the most complex areas to pursue, and hence [...0.5s] data is the only way to solve it. Okay, the emerging field of AI is where we also see the solution.So if I were to cater to only request from two set of people. One will be every insurance company in the government who have the tendency to, you know, literally treat this as a healthcare problem and [...0.9s] figure out a way to, you know, measure it so that you can pay for it.Okay and number two is [...1.0s] we are entering into the world of AI in a ways that, you know, [...0.5s] is unprecedented. And a database of this nature is the gold standard of building a charity pity for mental health.Okay, so anyone from your audience who is interested into any of those components would be, you know, love to have a chat with them and, you know be off any service that we can. [...1.3s]Well, that's great if our audience wants to learn more about, um, your business there, then I'll, I'll share the links in the shares, but can you go ahead and just tell us where to find out more?Yeah, absolutely. Uh, everything is on the website holmas. Com. H o l m U s k. Uh. Anyone who wants to reach out on, on LinkedIn, they can easily reach out novel doy com. Yeah, okay.Well, thank you for that. Like I said, we'll share that out [...0.4s] in our show notes and announcements in our newsletter, [...0.4s] etc. To make sure everybody's aware of that. Um. I can't thank you enough for your time today and for what you've built. It's just so impressive. Um.And it's really amazing [...0.4s] to talk about and hear this, the extent of this issue. And I'm glad somebody like you is out there tackling it. So just wanna say thank you and I look forward to finding out more as time goes on. Thank you, just thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to speak to you yeah, you bet.And thanks again to our audience for the Healthy Team, Healthy Business podcast.If you enjoyed today's show, please leave us a like or review on your favorite podcast platform. And if you wouldn't mind sharing it with some folks in your network, that would really be great and appreciated as well. We hope you join us for the next episode. Thank you very muchmuch